Pistol Builds?

[trihero]

I've been struggling to come up with a "viable" pistol build, but I just had a thought experiment I have a hunch will work:

Pistol hacker (specialist)

Items: pistol, red screen rounds, upgraded skulljack
Armor: Predator/Warden
Weapon: SMG
PCS: Hacking
Build: Combat protocol - Revival Protocol - Airdrop - Failsafe - Trojan - Scanning Protocol - Full Override

The idea here is to either

1) Clutch Shot into Haywire (if you didn't have to move to be in range of your target, this is possible in the same turn thanks to Quickdraw)
2) Move into Lightning Hands into Haywire (slightly less reliable than above due to pistol accuracy, but if you have to move first to get into range of the bot you're hacking then you can still debuff and hack in the same round)

The redscreen round debuff is -25 hack defense, which is actually better than +25 hack would be due to formula using ratios (I'm pretty sure it does, though I don't have the code). This makes hacking robots much much more reliable and less dependent on you happening to get +10 enemy protocol hack rewards. Drones/mechs/sectopods/andro shells show up fairly regularly so you can probably fit this guy in provided you have enough primary firepower for non-mech units.

He has some additional potentially handy uses -

1) Skullmining: he should be mobile enough with the SMG to offset the full inventory loadout, and due to Failsafe you can't get hurt by the feedback effect of the skulljack. Interestingly, if you miss with the skulljack to begin with, you actually get one extra move even if you had to yellow dash to get there. This synergizes with fanfire; if you miss with the skulljack, at least you can point blank fanfire for 3 pistol hits to the face, so you're going to heavily damage if not outright kill the advent you didn't successfully gib with the skulljack.

2) A natural officer: since he has few offensive uses outside of hacking, he makes a natural choice to be the one using moves like focus fire, command, etc.

3) The airdrop is very handy to keep your grenadiers plowing, especially once you have plasma grenades researched.

4) The pistol actually kind of works to offset his lack of good weapon abilities. Firing the pistol twice, or pistol into SMG shot, is a fairly reasonable output for the specialist who usually lacks the ability to fire intentionally twice in a turn (overwatch build is ok but not super preferable)

What pistol builds work for you guys? I remember reading a cute build that went something like shinobi - shadowstrike into faceoff, then conceal and do it again later. I can't really see pistols working for grenadiers since it would take two precious inventory slots to make maximal use of a pistol (pistol + ammo). I can see pistols being OK for rapid targeter sharpshooters since center mass and hunter's instincts both work with pistols. The other classes I don't see it being that great because they usually have better things to do than firing pistols, but I dunno what do you guys think?

[CasualGamer]

Not so much a build as an add on, but I have found a laser pistol and (awc) lightening hands very useful on my ranger for those first hits which don't quite kill - as I am only on lasers it happens quite a bit.
Shot, which hurts but doesnt kill, then lightening pistol gains from my locked on, then second light em up shot is available for a second target.
This helps secure two kill rounds for my ranger.

When he has some other tube time I think the inventory slot used for a pistol will prove even more useful.

[Ithuriel]

In general, you don't do (entirely) a "pistol build," in so far as that's the main purpose of the soldier. Instead, pistols provide supplementary roles for a few separate classes, depending on the situation. There are two primary situations I use pistol builds in:

Shinobis: I quite like Shinobis to pick up a good few pistol skills, regardless of their build (though be careful on aim- I have a SSgt Swordmaster who I trained a few pistol skills with before realizing he's sitting at aim 64....). Many people like the Shadowstrike -> big pistol shot combo, but it's more than that; these Shinobis are built with the primary purpose of serving a stealth and/or spotter role, being able to stealth some missions on their own+a specialist, and serving as spotters and scouts on big missions. Giving them advanced pistols and pistol training enables them to provide surprisingly powerful burst fire when needed, and heavily supplements their close-in damage. Swordmasters also greatly appreciate pistol skills, though a tad less so; while they can often go in and take heads, it's not uncommon for you to want them to hang back for safety- and generally they're wielding SMG's, so they tend to have trivial damage. Being tricked-out pistol-wise gives them broader options.

Officers: Officers have a few bonuses that relate to pistols, so I'll often have at least a basic pistol on them regardless; since they tend to be carrying pistols most of the time, why not train them into it? I tend to make very heavy use of Technical officers, so the pistol skills also provide them with more options when they're not blowing everything to high hell.

The "traditional" idea is that you put a pistol on a Sharpshooter so he can do something when he moves; that said, I've tried pistols on snipers and hate it. With Death From Above your Sniper doesn't need to be remotely close to the front lines, and regardless when he moves he's usually better served reloading or using a stock than firing a pistol.

[Jadiel]

I really like this idea, and I might give it a go. What pistol perks would you say are essential to make it work? Also, do you know if the Redscreen Rounds debuff stacks?

I use pistols on two builds: relay ranger and DfA snipers. On a DfA sniper, they have high Aim and Talon Ammo, which can lead to some amazing Face Offs if they move close. And just a regular pistol shot can be good after killing something with DfA instead of steadying. It's mostly because their utility slots aren't great..

I tend to do Alien Relay missions with a Shinobi (officer) Ranger team. The idea is to drop the EVAC somewhere in LoS of the Relay, then Ranger can move into EVAC and quadruple barrel (with Command) to destroy the relay in one turn. At FL8 though and before you get upgraded sawn-off, double double barrel can be just short, even with an SMG shot from shinobi next turn. So I train for Lightning Hands, and that's usually enough damage to guarantee it.

[CasualGamer]

Deleted duplicate post. (I didn't realise it had to be checked by mods and assumed it hadn't uploaded).

[aedn]

I have not done last many pistol builds due to time constraints on the AWC perks, and wanting all my soldiers to have everything.

I have a shinobi who got center mass, and BEO. He's still working on tank time and needs face off, but can one shot most 15-20 HP enemies with fanfire.

A pure holotarget sharpshooter is a solid choice as well, and can support the team well once they get tier 2 or 3 holotargeter.

[trihero]

Officers have a few bonuses that relate to pistols

What are those?

What pistol perks would you say are essential to make it work? Also, do you know if the Redscreen Rounds debuff stacks?

Clutch shot, Quick Draw, and Lightning Hands would be the bare minimum for the purpose of debuff + hack in the same turn. Anything more than that is more or less unnecessary although fanfire/faceoff can give that specialist a bit of burst damage. Redscreen round buff does not stack.

[Yenreb]

Officers have a few bonuses that relate to pistols

What are those?

Officers get both of these perks, usable only if they have a pistol equipped:
Commissar: shoot and kill a mind-controlled ally
You'll Need This: hand a basic pistol to an unarmed ally (VIP)

[trihero]

Officers have a few bonuses that relate to pistols

What are those?

Officers get both of these perks, usable only if they have a pistol equipped:
Commissar: shoot and kill a mind-controlled ally
You'll Need This: hand a basic pistol to an unarmed ally (VIP)

How useful are these? Is it worth the -1 mobility?

since they tend to be carrying pistols most of the time, why not train them into it?

Because officers already spend a considerable amount of time in the tube, further spending time to train pistolwork means they are not actually...officer'ing much in the field. I'm not even convinced officers should carry pistols as a general rule of thumb anyway. -1 mobility for the flavor of being able to shoot your mind controlled men, mmhmm.

[Alketi]

I've built a pistol-based Sharpshooter, going all the way up the Holotarget tree, in the fashion of vanilla XCOM 2. But, I also like your Specialist idea! Well done.

[ru2dvs]

I mentioned this in the rangers build thread as well. For Rangers:

Aggression + Bring 'Em On + Faceoff

Out of concealment, assuming 16 enemies visible, 70% base Crit (30 Aggression, 40 Flanking) with + 8 damage on crits. Talon + Officer can get you to 100%.
With mag pistol that's 14-17 damage to all enemies in range from concealment.

Faceoff also shores up one of Ranger's bigger weaknesses which is a lack of AOE options, and has great synergy with Light 'Em Up.

[OsoMoore]

I mentioned this in the rangers build thread as well. For Rangers:

Aggression + Bring 'Em On + Faceoff

Out of concealment, assuming 16 enemies visible, 70% base Crit (30 Aggression, 40 Flanking) with + 8 damage on crits. Talon + Officer can get you to 100%.
With mag pistol that's 14-17 damage to all enemies in range from concealment.

Faceoff also shores up one of Ranger's bigger weaknesses which is a lack of AOE options, and has great synergy with Light 'Em Up.

Make it an Assault and take Killer Instinct. That ups the damage by 50% and gives you the easy flank thanks to Run and Gun.

[Jadiel]

I really like the idea of a Pistol Assault! How do you build it? Maybe:

Electroshock - Close and Personal - Killer Instinct - Aggression - ??? - Bring 'Em On - ???

[trihero]

One thing I want to try sometime soon is just a very plain, simple, straightforward shinobi with faceoff and shadowstrike and venom or dragon rounds.

The choice of shadow strike as a perk is a fairly lenient one since you only have to give up either evasive or bladestorm, neither of which are terribly useful to a scout shinobi. I wouldn't even require this shinobi to learn hunter's instincts, although of course that would be a big dps boost. And that would be the only class perk requirement; of course you'd have to train faceoff in the AWC.

The idea is he's your stereotypical stealth shinobi, but he can suddenly come out of nowhere and do a massive activation of pods or assist with killing existing pods with a faceoff + shadow strike; i.e. first get into a decent position with cover where you expect not to get flanked by scamper, then faceoff, then conceal and walk away while the massively damaged pods scream in agony of poison or fire and get rekt by the rest of your squad.

I'm 99% sure that dots take on the critical damage value of the weapon that inflicted it, so with plasma tech your poison/fire dots are doing +3 for a minimum of 4 per turn; the main conceit of this approach is to abuse the dot damage. Of course, not every unit is susceptible to these dots, and the application rate isn't 100% either (not sure what it is, does anyone know?) per hit, but I have a hunch this is a pretty easy way to squeeze some massive damage out of a scout shinobi, which might be valuable in 1.3 when you're encouraged to fight a bit more.

[trihero]

I really like the idea of a Pistol Assault! How do you build it? Maybe:

Electroshock - Close and Personal - Killer Instinct - Aggression - ??? - Bring 'Em On - ???

I would personally take

Lightning Reflexes - Close and Personal - Killer Instinct - Aggression - Close Encounters - Bring'Em On - Street Sweeper

Lightning Reflexes is the easiest/cheesiest way to clear overwatches simply by the act of moving. I'd still wear the shotgun for a big street sweeper, whereas the pistol would be more of a mid-range way of engaging. I'd be a little bit tickled wrong to be missing out on close combat specialist, and I really don't like weighing down the assault with items since mobility is so key to the class, but if you really want to take advantage of face off then bring 'em on is kinda mandatory. With all this crit, I'm inclined to believe that poison (or fire) ammo is your best best since the dot seems to take advantage of your crit damage, thus netting you more damage than talon rounds would (at least on enemies that are susceptible to the dots).

[Dwarfling]

My current pistol user is a Technical Hybrid (Fire in the Hole - Napalm X - Burnout - Formidable - Incinerator - Tactical Sense - Bunker Buster), and while the main idea was to use the Shadowkeeper to regain concealment and get a second flame ambush off, having Lightning Hands and Fan Fire has proven very useful considering I also packed him with Viper rounds. He's like a little bag of full of DoTs. Haven't gotten him up to Faceoff yet tho, tube times be high.

[Jadiel]

I tried pistol Assaults in my last Campaign, and found them to be really good. Killer Instinct, Aggression, Bring 'Em On and Faceoff synergize really well. I tried a couple of different builds, and I'm still not sure what I like best. Faceoff is the key pistol perk, and typically I put them in the AWC until they got it. The random nature of the AWC meant that that sometimes took a while though, and the way I geared soldiers often depended on how many other pistol perks they had. The AWC investment in them also meant that I was unwilling to risk them nearly as much as I would a non-pistol wielding Assault, which basically meant that I was only really aggressive with them when I was doing RnG into Faceoff.

I ended up with a base of: Electroshock - Close and Personal - Killer Instinct - Aggression - Rapid Fire - Bring 'Em On - Chain Lightning

I took Rapid Fire over the other two choices because it's more generally useful. It basically just makes you stronger in pretty much every situation. It works well with Shotgun, Rifle and SMG (and I experimented with all three weapons). The other two perks at this rank are both much more situational. CE is amazing in situations where you can get in the enemies face, but I didn't find that happened enough to make it worth it. Hit and Run works well with an SMG to find flanks (and you both crit a lot and your crits really hurt with this build), but it's a lot less good with a Shotgun. If you're lucky enough to roll Shadowstrike in the AWC, then SMGs are probably your primary weapon of choice.

I took Chain Lightning because it's a really strong perk, and while Street Sweeper is also really strong, I wanted to be able to use different primary weapons. Chain Lightning gives you a second really strong "Hit everything I can see" ability, which can sometimes be useful for setting up Face Off the following turn, and sometimes gets used with Command if your RnG into Faceoff pulled additional pods and too many of them are left alive. And sometimes it's useful to have a second string in your bow which you can use from a much safer position while RnG and Faceoff are on cd. I like Street Sweeper, but it overlaps with Faceoff a lot, and requires a shotgun.

I took Close and Personal on all my Assaults in that campaign, but I think I might try Arc Pulser on my next one. You don't actually get that close to many enemies while using Faceoff (I'd say the average crit bonus is less than 10%), and Arc Pulser might be more useful combined with Chain Lightning. But crits are really important for Faceoff (your average damage with no crit is about 8-9, whereas on a crit with a pod in view it's around 20), so Close and Personal is probably better.

[trihero]

Arc Pulser might be more useful combined with Chain Lightning.

It doesn't combine with chain lightning, I tried it the mechs don't get shot at.

I also believe that even electroshock doesn't work with chain lighting either, I fired a chain lightning at a muton elite and it was neither stunned nor disoriented after the skill went off.

I'm not super convinced about pistol assaults; I'll just stick with CE/CCS assaults and use them for quick response/network towers where they shine. I'm pretty sure shadowstrike faceoff is the way to go, it involves minimal tweaking to existing shinobi builds and gives them huge aoe burst.

[Jacke]

[ Arc Pullsar ] doesn't combine with chain lightning, I tried it the mechs don't get shot at.

I also believe that even electroshock doesn't work with chain lighting either, I fired a chain lightning at a muton elite and it was neither stunned nor disoriented after the skill went off.

Those have to be bugs. If that's working as intended, that's just wrong and makes hash of Chain Lighting.

[Jadiel]

Arc Pulser might be more useful combined with Chain Lightning.

It doesn't combine with chain lightning, I tried it the mechs don't get shot at.

I also believe that even electroshock doesn't work with chain lighting either, I fired a chain lightning at a muton elite and it was neither stunned nor disoriented after the skill went off.

I'm not super convinced about pistol assaults; I'll just stick with CE/CCS assaults and use them for quick response/network towers where they shine. I'm pretty sure shadowstrike faceoff is the way to go, it involves minimal tweaking to existing shinobi builds and gives them huge aoe burst.

I haven't tried Arc Pulser, so you might be right. The perk does say "Enemies which can be stunned", which technically isn't true of mechs (though they can be shutdown), so I guess it could be WAD.

Electroshock definitely works with Chain Lightning, although I'm not sure about Muton Elites specifically, as I stopped my last campaign before I got to them. I didn't notice it not working on anyone else though.

I like shadowstrike Faceoff, but the crit damage just doesn't compare with Bring 'Em On + Killer Instinct. Faceoff from a Concealed Assault (against unactivated pods) is almost as good even without Shadowstrike, as you're usually shooting enemies out of cover (so CTH is close to 100 already) and with the exposed bonus + Aggression + Talon Rounds + Get Some you're close to 100% CTC also. And Shinobis are never going to be doing 30 damage on crits..

[trihero]

I like shadowstrike Faceoff, but the crit damage just doesn't compare with Bring 'Em On + Killer Instinct. Faceoff from a Concealed Assault (against unactivated pods) is almost as good even without Shadowstrike, as you're usually shooting enemies out of cover (so CTH is close to 100 already) and with the exposed bonus + Aggression + Talon Rounds + Get Some you're close to 100% CTC also. And Shinobis are never going to be doing 30 damage on crits..

I'm curious to hear more about your uses of assaults with faceoff. How are you "usually shooting enemies out of cover?" Is it just opportunistic R+G or are you also using cover destruction?

I also think Talon Rounds could be a wasted potential of damage - your critical damage and chance get applied to dots you inflict, so have you tried with dragon/venom rounds? I have a suspicion you will see the dots ticking for 10 damage, which should be enough to finish off just about anything. I would gladly trade 10% crit and +1 damage for outright +10 damage to dots.

I don't doubt that shinobis can't get 30 crit damage, but again my reasoning is you don't need that much overkill to begin with, it requires very minimal, essentially undetectable tweaking to an existing stealth build whereas you have to twist and turn an assault into something that doesn't use the shotgun nearly as well as it normally would. As you said yourself, you had to play your pistol assaults more cautiously than usual which I don't think applies to a stealth shinobi, they just have the ability to squeeze in a ton of damage in a routine build you want anyways on your team. And my reasoning is to use venom/dragon rounds to "double dip" in the critical damage applying to the dot for some pretty fantastic safe damage (faceoff into conceal into run away).

And what about a Ranger with bring'em on/ aggression? Assaults are not unique with those skills. You would be losing R+G, but getting grazing fire for instance which would help massively with hitting targets that are not flanked and thus spread the dots much easier, and getting BEO/Aggression is standard anyways for a non-overwatching ranger.

[Jadiel]

If you look a bit earlier in that quote, I'm talking about shooting at unactivated pods while concealed. So they're obviously not in cover. When using Faceoff without concealment, I try to position as well as possible with RnG, but I generally can only flank around 50% of enemies.

I just tested Venom Rounds, and they don't get any bonus damage on crits. Have you actually seen venom round dots ticking for more than 1? The only mechanic which I can think of which is similar is dots tick for an additional damage when they come from grenades launched by a grenadier with boosted cores. But I still don't think they benefit from crits, even from Bigger Booms. I haven't tested that though, so I might be wrong.

I haven't tried a Ranger with Faceoff, but I can see the potential. Crit damage would be a lot lower because no Killer Instinct, although Fortify might be nice. I guess you'd probably build it as Close and Personal - Locked On/Suppression - Aggression - Fortify - Bring 'Em On - Tac Sense - Combat Fitness. I'm not sure the build as a whole is that synergistic with a Ranger's abilities, and you don't have the utility of the arc thrower. You get a lot more tank perks though. It's also nice to get BeO a rank earlier than Assaults, because that's the perk which makes the build shine. I'll definitely keep an eye out for Rangers with Shadowstrike in the AWC on my next campaign, because that would definitely be worth building. I didn't get one on my last run. Ranger Aim would also be nice, as you need a high Aim to make it work without Shadowstrike.

After this discussion and doing a bit more testing, I think if I try Pistol assaults again, I'd like to try a more SMG focussed build, with Hit and Run

[trihero]

Have you actually seen venom round dots ticking for more than 1?

I have seen fire dot tick for 7 (from crits on the fusion blade)
I have seen venom rounds tick for 3 (with a rupture shot + plasma cannon from vanilla, which shouldn't be possible because rupture is +3 so 4 should be the minimum)
Gas/fire grenades also benefit from biggest booms crits (I tested this a lot in vanilla, and in LW2 I've seen 6 damage fire grenade ticks unexplained by cores since max 3 + boosted cores = 4)

So I'm unsure what it is about it not working with pistols, that's disappointing. No I haven't tested in on pistols myself (getting close to there), but I did assume it would because of the many things I've seen before that would suggest it. I've always wondered exactly how crit interacts with dot damage because it clearly does, but I don't know the full story as your venom round testing reveals.

Did you find overall that it was worth building an assault pistol just for a concealment opening? I was beginning to think it had more use in general fights but if all you're doing with it is conceal opening, then I'll just go back to the usual assault builds. If what you're mainly doing is using faceoff from concealment, I think doing it on a ranger makes much more sense since they have better aim, BOE+aggression comes standard on a non-overwatch build.

[Goumindong]

Grenade dots are an effect of the grenade and so are effected by grenade perks.

Ammo is separate from the pistol and applies only to the base effect. (Bonus damage rounds should not increase damage on a crit either).

So the only way to increase damage from venom rounds is to rupture.

[trihero]

How does rupture explain a 3 damage venom dot tick? It should be 4 damage, not 3.