Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

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NephilimNexus
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Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by NephilimNexus »

Most people are not very enthusiastic about psionics, and it's easy to see why. In the typical game, by the time they even come into play at all you're at least up to magnetic weapons, if not coilguns, and the demand for resources makes training up a whole new soldier class when you've already got three squads worth of "A Team" ranks hardly seems worth it.

I decided to try something different. I occurred to me when that the only thing really required was to have at least one scientist and a single dead Sectoid. Thing is, LW2 puts a Sectoid right there in the opening starter mission. This means so long as I didn't do anything really stupid (read: kill it with a grenade) then I'm pretty much guaranteed to have that covered already.

So right from the start of the game the very first thing I did was do an inventory check (Veteran level game): 200 Supplies, 5/12 power and 1 dead Sectoid. Now lets see just how fast I can get a working psionics program up and running, hm?

The very first thing I research, starting on March 1st, is Alien Biotech. This takes 6 days. Of course I head over to the blackmarket on day 2 and buy a Scientist and an Engineer. This leaves me broke on supplies but it lets me get excavating right away and drops that research project down to only 3 days.

On March 5th I am now done with Alien Biotech and start doing the Sectoid Autopsy. This completes on March 14th. At this point I was lucky enough to get a mission to rescue a 2nd scientist, which throws things off just a little bit. Began researching Psionics, which takes 9 days, finishing up on March 24th.

Head over to Black Market, sell of everything that I don't absolutely need and, paired with clearing two rooms of the Avenger and a smash & grab mission, gives me the 150 supplies and single elerium core that I need to start construction of the Psi Lab on March 23rd, with a finish time of 7 days (March 30th.)

On March 30th my PsiLab is now open, I am using 8/12 power and as soon as I can scrap up 100 supplies and 1 elerium core (and I already have to core) then I can tack on a second room. With my two scientists working there my first trainee is scheduled by be ready for action in only 3 days.

Thus... by heading directly into Psionics at the expense of everything else you can start churning out new psi-troopers by the start of 2nd month of the game.



So what does all this mean? Look, if nothing else, Soul Fire alone is a 100% to hit chance, zero cover, automatic kill on any Advent trooper or sentry, with good odds on one-shotting Engineers and even Officers. Soul Steal makes medics and even armor almost pointless. Fortress in the early game is always welcome - and these are just the bottom tier powers.

Now imagine what it will be like when you've got four guys who can Void Rift before you even have laser weapons.

See? It turns out psionics rule - I had just been using them wrong. Until now.
Antifringe
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Antifringe »

I've done this before, and honestly, I found it underwhelming. You can also get EXO Suits around April, which gives you a much more powerful ability that can be added to any soldier, and doesn't require you to divert research or resources away from the normal tech path. Soulfire in April is... okay. On Legendary, it's not even a guaranteed kill against Engineers or higher, and once Alien Conditioning pops, it doesn't even 100% Troopers anymore.

Psionics isn't bad, but you can't compare it to a vacuum. You have to compare it to what you could have gotten by doing something else.
Dwarfling
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Dwarfling »

Or you know, dedicate yourself to weapon techs instead and now ALL the barracks can fight. You don't even need to get everyone an up to date gun, you're fine with half of your people getting Lasers, then the other half waiting up to Magnetics and so on.
Last edited by Dwarfling on Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Antifringe
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Antifringe »

I find the weapon techs to be underwhleming. You get a small, incremental advantage, and to really leverage it, almost everyone has to have it. An EXO Suit has a larger, more dramatic effect on the battle, and you only need one. Ballistics work fine until Tier 2s become common, which is about the tie I start being able to afford lasers and mag weapons, anyway.
Dwarfling
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Dwarfling »

Antifringe wrote:I find the weapon techs to be underwhleming. You get a small, incremental advantage, and to really leverage it, almost everyone has to have it. An EXO Suit has a larger, more dramatic effect on the battle, and you only need one. Ballistics work fine until Tier 2s become common, which is about the tie I start being able to afford lasers and mag weapons, anyway.
From Adv. Laser to Battle Armor is like a week and a half if you got the resources, meanwhile your DFA Sharpshooters can actually kill something with one shot and the Rangers can actually dent the snakes, lancers, mutons and MECs.
Dwarfling
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Dwarfling »

Don't get me wrong, I grab EXO everytime, just right after I make my Sharpshooters, Rangers, OW Specialists, Assaults and Gunners relevant, which doesn't take a lot of time, or resources, say 200S and a minimal amount of elerium and alloys. After that I try to grab 2 extra EXOs (so 3 plus the SPARK) while I gather the supplies for Magnetic.

Which I think it's preferible to getting bogged down of Psionic research.
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

On Legend I find the best spot for PSI is after magnetic + EXOs.

Usually that's the time when the trial-by-fire officer starts to kick in and when you can also dedicate a scientist for the training. That's pretty much the same as rushing PSI but not assigning SCI to PSI labs (since you probably don't want to be on ballistics in May).

They are decent as the 6th man on GOps while on training and they get close to max by October. Mind control + Statis is all you need from a PSI end game.

It delays coil with a month. Whether that is worth it or not is a different story. But rushing PSI on legend - before any other tech upgrades - it's probably not going to end well.
NephilimNexus
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by NephilimNexus »

Dwarfling wrote:Or you know, dedicate yourself to weapon techs instead and now ALL the barracks can fight. You don't even need to get everyone an up to date gun, you're fine with half of your people getting Lasers, then the other half waiting up to Magnetics and so on.
If I want to put 20 guys into psionic training, I need a psilab. This costs a total of 250 supplies and 2 elerium cores to get both bays open.

Or I could dedicate myself to weapons tech instead, let's see...

One laser rifle - 20 supplies, 1 alloy, 1 elerium.
One mag rifle - 30 supplies, 2 alloy, 2 elerieum
One coil rifle - 50 supplies, 3 alloy, 5 elerium
One plasma rifle - 60 supplies, 4 alloy, 5 elerium, 1 elerium core

So even if I skip actually making any new weapons until I got all the way to plasma tech, outfitting 20 guys with plasma rifles is going to cost me 1200 supplies, 80 alloys, 100 elerium and 20 elerium cores.

If I actually go full upgrade at each tier that cost becomes 3200 supplies, 200 alloys, 260 elerium and 20 elerium cores.

That's assuming basic rifles for all 20 guys. Specialized gear like cannons, shotguns and sniper rifles cost even more.

For 1200 supplies I can pretty much build every Avenger room that I'll ever need in the game, with change leftover.
Icarus
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Icarus »

NephilimNexus wrote: If I want to put 20 guys into psionic training, I need a psilab. This costs a total of 250 supplies and 2 elerium cores to get both bays open.

Or I could dedicate myself to weapons tech instead, let's see... [...]
I don't think anyone is seriously considering buying no weapons and making every soldier psi. I think the point is that psi causes a delay, both through the initial research cost and through the scientists required in the psi lab. So you get psi soldiers earlier, but every other tech a bit later. The question is whether the result is worth the delay.

You're going to buy EXO and weapon tech anyway. So the question is if having strong psi soldiers is worth everyone else be weaker for a bit longer.
Psieye
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Psieye »

NephilimNexus wrote: Thus... by heading directly into Psionics at the expense of everything else you can start churning out new psi-troopers by the start of 2nd month of the game.

Now imagine what it will be like when you've got four guys who can Void Rift before you even have laser weapons.
I'd be interested in hearing how this Veteran campaign goes by the time M3 dudes show up. I'm going to assume you solve Mecs.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
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Skyro
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Skyro »

IMO the best way to tech to Psi on legend is to see if you can squeeze in Psi between Mag and Coil and still hit Coil before M3s show up around end of Aug or so. If you can then go for it, if not I would either skip it or do it after Coil.

I think late-game Psi still can be worth it. All it takes is a few training missions with a Trial by Fire officer to get them up and running. And late game you're not really going to be training your rookies into regular soldiers anyway (maybe for suicide missions I suppose). I don't really see the point in rushing Psi early. You don't get a ton of mileage out of high level Psis to begin with. Their 3 base skills are already pretty good and once you pick up stasis they rightfully earn their spot on your squads.
virtualangel
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by virtualangel »

I personally love the Psi aspect of the game and rush it right away, but I have not tried Legendary yet, still working my way through Commander.

My current game went:
Mod Weapons
Alien Biotech
Psi
Laser
Armor (EXO/Spider)
Mag
Power Armor
Coil (researching now)

Psi is really powerful through the entire game with Soulfire and Insanity. Taking a Psi and a Specialist really allow you to control the enemy pods by taking over enemies and using them to absorb enemy fire.

I didn’t choose unlocking them for any strategic reason, I did it because I wanted to play them as early as possible, but they are now a highly utilized member of my core teams. In mid game they are reliable controllers, damage dealers and have a few tricks that can keep them useful in almost any squad. Combined with AWC perks they really start to shine.

When a new pod is activated I use Insanity to try and control a bio enemy, if it doesn’t work I hold off his/her last action until the end of my turn. The rest of my team unloads on the enemy and I use my Psi to clean up a low HP target with Soulfire, Mindmerge an exposed/low cover squaddie or throw a defensive grenade.

But hands down I like the Specialist (Haywire) and Psi (Insanity) combo on a team.

I have hit M3 enemies and have had little problem dealing with them, there was some hard times getting enough laser/mags up and running in the start. Managing the strat layer and mission selection vs infiltration times mitigated this a bit.
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

NephilimNexus wrote:Most people are not very enthusiastic about psionics, and it's easy to see why. In the typical game, by the time they even come into play at all you're at least up to magnetic weapons, if not coilguns, and the demand for resources makes training up a whole new soldier class when you've already got three squads worth of "A Team" ranks hardly seems worth it.

I decided to try something different. I occurred to me when that the only thing really required was to have at least one scientist and a single dead Sectoid. Thing is, LW2 puts a Sectoid right there in the opening starter mission. This means so long as I didn't do anything really stupid (read: kill it with a grenade) then I'm pretty much guaranteed to have that covered already.

So right from the start of the game the very first thing I did was do an inventory check (Veteran level game): 200 Supplies, 5/12 power and 1 dead Sectoid. Now lets see just how fast I can get a working psionics program up and running, hm?

The very first thing I research, starting on March 1st, is Alien Biotech. This takes 6 days. Of course I head over to the blackmarket on day 2 and buy a Scientist and an Engineer. This leaves me broke on supplies but it lets me get excavating right away and drops that research project down to only 3 days.

On March 5th I am now done with Alien Biotech and start doing the Sectoid Autopsy. This completes on March 14th. At this point I was lucky enough to get a mission to rescue a 2nd scientist, which throws things off just a little bit. Began researching Psionics, which takes 9 days, finishing up on March 24th.

Head over to Black Market, sell of everything that I don't absolutely need and, paired with clearing two rooms of the Avenger and a smash & grab mission, gives me the 150 supplies and single elerium core that I need to start construction of the Psi Lab on March 23rd, with a finish time of 7 days (March 30th.)

On March 30th my PsiLab is now open, I am using 8/12 power and as soon as I can scrap up 100 supplies and 1 elerium core (and I already have to core) then I can tack on a second room. With my two scientists working there my first trainee is scheduled by be ready for action in only 3 days.

Thus... by heading directly into Psionics at the expense of everything else you can start churning out new psi-troopers by the start of 2nd month of the game.



So what does all this mean? Look, if nothing else, Soul Fire alone is a 100% to hit chance, zero cover, automatic kill on any Advent trooper or sentry, with good odds on one-shotting Engineers and even Officers. Soul Steal makes medics and even armor almost pointless. Fortress in the early game is always welcome - and these are just the bottom tier powers.

Now imagine what it will be like when you've got four guys who can Void Rift before you even have laser weapons.

See? It turns out psionics rule - I had just been using them wrong. Until now.
First of all, this is the best start one could have + this is on Veteran. On Veteran, few people mentioned that they had coils on end May .

So countering people's complains over rush PSI on legend vs a Veteran difficulty is not fair comparison. People on reddit did you suggested on legend and they had their first PSIs out of the tube by the end of April. They also said that on early June, they were still on ballistics - while a standard build reaches Magnetic weapons at that point.

Another point that you missing is the facilities. PSI LAB forces you to delay both GTS and AWG due to power requirements.

As for having "20 PSI soldiers" is more like an idea. You realize that all PSI soldiers need to be trained in the tube after each promotion right? You only have 2 spots there. Speaking of Void Rift ...that takes like 20 days for a SGT level PSI to train . So "Having 4 guys who can Void Rift before you even have laser" is valid if you plan to make lasers on July - August.

That being said,even a standard M2 drone will give you a headacke if you don't have a soldier with a good weapon.
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8wayz
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by 8wayz »

Difficulty plays a big role on your research plans - on Legendary everything takes a lot longer, so you won't be able to research Psi by mid March, far from that. Not to mention building the lab itself.

As mentioned, you will still need to train some Specialists to deal with MECs and possibly some Shinobis as well, if you do not want to stroll blind into every mission.

Please play that Psi campaign and do tell how it goes. Once you hit August you should start seeing a lot more MECs and PSI-resistant enemies, which you will need to counter somehow.
NephilimNexus
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by NephilimNexus »

8wayz wrote:Please play that Psi campaign and do tell how it goes. Once you hit August you should start seeing a lot more MECs and PSI-resistant enemies, which you will need to counter somehow.
I am up to August, I currently have nine psionic troopers on my roster and I am loving every minute of it.

Ran into a very tough battle previously, half the squad left stabilized, only a psionic and two shinobis left standing. The last foe on the map was Muton Centurion and he was about to make sushi out of my two shinobi. I hit it with Insanity from long range and it panicked. My shinobis ran up and beat the ugly beast to death before it could recover. Had it not been for that psionic it would have been a total squad wipe.

I've lost count of the number of times Mind Merge has saved the lives of my troops and kept them out of the hospital. I haven't wasted a single flashbang on an Advent Sentry since my first psionic trooper was rolled out of training. Things like "cover" and "armor" have practically lost all meaning when it comes to picking my targets. Shieldbearer popped out? Two blasts with Soul Fire and that problem is solved before it can even start, and with zero chance of failure.

When I did my first Liberation mission of the campaign in July and brought along two psionic troopers in the mix. The first "pod" I see is a traffic jam of a dozen Advent soldiers all clumped together. Sifting through this potential nightmare I noticed that one of them was an Heavy Rocketeer, so I did the usual routine of setting up everyone into overwatch and then, for my opening attack, cast Fuse on that bugger.

There was only three guys even left to try and scamper after it went off. None of them made it to cover.

Image

The trick that I've found works for me is that I usually start with 2 psionics and a gunner as anti-mechanical (guaranteed to get the Shredder perk, no AWC required, high damage potential and their overall low aim means little since robots never use cover). If time is short I've found that Sharpshooters also make great mech killers, even with nothing fancier than AP rounds, so long as you can get them to high ground early on. Always arm my psionic troops with SMGs for mobility and fast infiltration times (makes up for the heavy gear guys behind them, you see).

As time permits I'll add in other things, but the first two units I pick are always psionic troopers now. Always.

Yeah, I'm running into Mutons, Sergents, Advanced Officers and crap, and sure I've only got enough Predator armor and Laser weapons for maybe half a squad on a good day, but I'm not sweating it. I'm no longer a total slave to the Supply pool. The potential of psionic troopers is nowhere near as tightly bound to equipment lists as everyone else. It's kind of like a monk character in D&D - everyone else is worried about whether or not their gear is on par with their character level, but the monk doesn't care because they don't need all that gear. They've got 2 upgrades in the whole game, both psi-amp, and that's it. All those upgrades for pistols, grenades, gremlins, arc throwers, swords, etc, they don't matter. Just put them in good armor and maybe give them a better psi-amp at some point. Done. That's their whole shopping list.
Psieye
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Psieye »

Fascinating - Fuse works with Rockets as well as grenades. Do continue giving updates on your campaign, it's M3 Advent and superheavy Mecs I'm interested in hearing about. You're only at M2 dudes so far.
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NephilimNexus
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by NephilimNexus »

Fuse works on Advent mechs just fine. They don't normally pack enough ordinance to off themselves, but it's still funny watching them blow their own armor off and drop to half health. Bonus is that is uses up their rocket attack, which means less offense potential from them as well. Not that I really need to worry, as Fortress is a must have power that I have all my psi-troopers train, but the rest of the squad appreciates it greatly when enemy rockets explode on them instead of us.

I'm telling ya, once you have Fuse you'll be smiling when you see enemy engineers and rocketeers show up.
Icarus
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Icarus »

Alright, tried out PSI soldiers a bit and was astonished by the mileage you get from a fresh-out-of-the-tube soldier. I was slapping a couple freshies on my teams in September, and in contrast to every other squaddie, they started pulling their weight instantly, just with their basic abilities.

So I'm willing to give psi a higher priority in my upcoming 1.5 commander campaign. But I don't understand the system well enough. How is the rank of a psi decided, and how would I go about choosing the skills to minimize training time?
Phaseless
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Phaseless »

Psi working great in well developped Teams is an entirely different Thing though than relying solely on psis at the start of the game. Not saying not worth it, just saying it's a different Story.
Steelflame
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Steelflame »

Icarus wrote:Alright, tried out PSI soldiers a bit and was astonished by the mileage you get from a fresh-out-of-the-tube soldier. I was slapping a couple freshies on my teams in September, and in contrast to every other squaddie, they started pulling their weight instantly, just with their basic abilities.

So I'm willing to give psi a higher priority in my upcoming 1.5 commander campaign. But I don't understand the system well enough. How is the rank of a psi decided, and how would I go about choosing the skills to minimize training time?
Psi's ranks just is a factor of how many skills they have learned. Skills don't change in time required just because its a high or low rank soldier, but higher skills have longer times and require a prerequisite skill, and are less likely to show up at low levels.

Psi's crucially have a flowchart for their skills.

Solace, Fortress, and Stasis are the 3 building block skills. These are required to unlock things like Null Lance, Void Rift, or Domination. Mind Merge, Soul Steal, and Schism don't scale into any other skill (Although Schism does make your Void Rift stronger by a fairly significant margin, as the chance to cast Insanity after each hit of Void rift is very high, and with Schism that is an extra 4-6 damage + rupture, and some potential Mind controls, panics, or at worst distortions).


There are a few mods that give you the flow chart in the Psi room, or there is the mod "Make Psi Ops great again" that not only adds an extra skill tree to the Psi units so that they are like the other classes, but also shows the exact skill requirements in the soldier screen so that it is clear and concise what requires what.
Icarus
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Icarus »

According to Ufopaedia, there's a comparison with the psionic's rank, see here:

http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Psi_Operative_(LW2)

This corresponds to the comment in XComGameData.ini:

Code: Select all

; additional days per ability level above current psi level
PsiTrainingRankScalar[0]=6.0f ;Easy
Which is my main problem - is the rank dependent on the number of skills or on what else?
TrainInVain
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by TrainInVain »

Thanks for posting how you did it. I play veteran and am going to give it a try on my next campaign as I think it will be a nice way to mix things up.
JulianSkies
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by JulianSkies »

Icarus wrote:According to Ufopaedia, there's a comparison with the psionic's rank, see here:

http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Psi_Operative_(LW2)

This corresponds to the comment in XComGameData.ini:

Code: Select all

; additional days per ability level above current psi level
PsiTrainingRankScalar[0]=6.0f ;Easy
Which is my main problem - is the rank dependent on the number of skills or on what else?
Rank is based on number of skills.
Icarus
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by Icarus »

JulianSkies wrote:Rank is based on number of skills.
Thanks.
gimrah
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Re: Psionics - I was doing it all wrong.

Post by gimrah »

Psi fits in quite nicely if you you skip lasers and rush mag. Just do it after mag.
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