I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

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theblitz6794
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:32 am

I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by theblitz6794 »

I love this game but we need an "intercept in orbit" standing mission or fleets in interface orbit need to prevent bombardment.

My current gameplay loop is this:

get notification that 1/2 corvette fleet is in Callisto orbit

Select 1st fleet

click transfer

click enemy fleet

click confirm

Select 2nd fleet

click transfer

enemy fleet

confirm

wait

maybe they don't get there in time and a module gets destroyed

get popup

select engage

enemy fleet runs away

get popup

select high wall

select engage

enemy fleet cannot run away

gamble with autoresolve or fight easy battle and kill enemy

order fleet back to station (if I don't it will be attacked despite my fleet being right next to it)

Wait 2 days

Repeat the entire loop





After about 10 occurrences, I zoomed out and saw a seemingly unending stream of 1sy and 2sy corvettes charging at me

I have to do this for at least 90 more days until my battlestations are up.

This is the antithesis of fun. I love this game but I cannot commit to a new run until they have a plan to fix it. I play on validation fyi
PAwleus
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by PAwleus »

Yes, those steams of single-ship fleets were sometimes getting on my nerves, too. However, I don't know why you need Battlestations against a corvette when the surface tier 1 defense module is enough?
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johnnylump
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by johnnylump »

First off, I concede what you are describing is tedious and we'll try to figure something out.

IF we automated this, though, most clicks we eliminate would dangerously reduce your control over what happens, meaning putting a fleet in "auto-interception" mode will give you enough rope to hang yourself with.

The main issue is the game can't assume how you want to handle your fleet's Delta-V matching orbits with the bombarding fleet. You may want to leave some for pursuit and some for combat. We can best-guess here but there is no chance you'll be happy with the outcome every time.

If you're using "pincer" tactics (which may be changed or go away as the game develops), you won't be able to control which fleet gets there first.

Anyway, it's things we're thinking about but the solutions all have trade-offs.
PAwleus
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by PAwleus »

I think that in this case it would be enough if AI created larger fleets before sending them, at least to places where there is already an enemy military presence. Some notification that enemy fleet is about to reach a body with our assets around it would also be very helpful (eg. 1 day before, perhaps optional and even better: with time modifiable by player in the Fleets window for any enemy fleet).
Newman
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by Newman »

PAwleus wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:55 pm Yes, those steams of single-ship fleets were sometimes getting on my nerves, too. However, I don't know why you need Battlestations against a corvette when the surface tier 1 defense module is enough?
In general because once you have tier 1 defense modules, the aliens just send a larger fleet. Battlestations are the way to go to be able to forget about a base, but until they are up, there is some tedium there, I agree. Either the ability to set up AI for ship behavior (if tank full go to <select body> interface orbit and auto intercept, if tank below <dV transfer to <select station>, that sort of thing). Or perhaps a class of ship that's basically a mobile turret, that you can land at a surface base and keep them there as protection until it's own defenses are built.

Speaking of tedious things, how do you guys deal with late game megafauna? I'm seriously tired of dealing with it.
PAwleus
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by PAwleus »

Newman wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:48 am In general because once you have tier 1 defense modules, the aliens just send a larger fleet.
Unfortunately for me, I haven't seen such behavior even when having tier 2 defense modules (I don't have tier 3 defense modules built because they are not needed in my game).

Edit: Hm... perhaps it's because my stations with multiple large shipyards usually don't have any defense modules so AI might think they are undefended (they are defended by fleets that are docked there or are close enough). I have even some bases in heavily defended areas that are without any defense modules...
Newman wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:48 am Speaking of tedious things, how do you guys deal with late game megafauna? I'm seriously tired of dealing with it.
You need to deal with the alien flora (and alien councilors) more aggressively earlier - in my game I don't have any problem with alien flora (I haven't even seen it within more than a year) in the late game (2037, Brutal), not to mention megafauna.
theblitz6794
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by theblitz6794 »

johnnylump wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:14 pm First off, I concede what you are describing is tedious and we'll try to figure something out.

IF we automated this, though, most clicks we eliminate would dangerously reduce your control over what happens, meaning putting a fleet in "auto-interception" mode will give you enough rope to hang yourself with.

The main issue is the game can't assume how you want to handle your fleet's Delta-V matching orbits with the bombarding fleet. You may want to leave some for pursuit and some for combat. We can best-guess here but there is no chance you'll be happy with the outcome every time.

If you're using "pincer" tactics (which may be changed or go away as the game develops), you won't be able to control which fleet gets there first.

Anyway, it's things we're thinking about but the solutions all have trade-offs.
Why not just disallow orbital bombard unless you have double the fleet power in orbit of the defenders? No sane ship captain would bombard without orbital superiority anyway
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johnnylump
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by johnnylump »

It's not airspace. The circumference of Low Earth Orbit is about 53,000 kilometers, too big to just assume a patrol will always find someone. The way to prevent bombing is to intercept the bombers.

Granted, it's a lot less around asteroids, and I've chewed on requiring orbital dominance before allowing bombardment in that case, but it's one of those fiddly rules that we'd have to communicate.
theblitz6794
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by theblitz6794 »

johnnylump wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:50 am It's not airspace. The circumference of Low Earth Orbit is about 53,000 kilometers, too big to just assume a patrol will always find someone. The way to prevent bombing is to intercept the bombers.
But as you say in the dev diaries there's no stealth in space. The trajectory would be obvious. As a game mechanic of an abstraction--that a small fleet wouldn't seppuku itself into an easy low orbit intercept for a larger one--would it not make sense? You already do it with freedom of the seas.
PAwleus
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by PAwleus »

I would be against such abstraction from the gameplay perspective because there might be circumstances when risking interception by a dominant fleet is worth the risk of destruction if some another important mission is achieved thanks to it, eg. I could imagine myself (and such situation in real military forces) sending a small bombing fleet to trigger a response from a dominant fleet and when it's committed, attacking its main station or another important target with another small fleet in time frame that prevents sufficient reaction of the dominant fleet to this second threat.
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johnnylump
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by johnnylump »

theblitz6794 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:28 am
johnnylump wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:50 am It's not airspace. The circumference of Low Earth Orbit is about 53,000 kilometers, too big to just assume a patrol will always find someone. The way to prevent bombing is to intercept the bombers.
But as you say in the dev diaries there's no stealth in space. The trajectory would be obvious. As a game mechanic of an abstraction--that a small fleet wouldn't seppuku itself into an easy low orbit intercept for a larger one--would it not make sense? You already do it with freedom of the seas.
I spoke indelicately; I didn't mean they shouldn't see it; I meant they are potentially too far away to automatically interdict it because the distances involved are so great. "Orbit walking" -- changing your position on the orbit's ellipse -- can be an expensive operation.
rookie.one
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by rookie.one »

johnnylump wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:14 pm First off, I concede what you are describing is tedious and we'll try to figure something out.
I would greatly help to make this dynamic less tedious, if there were a timer for fleets before they can start bombarding (~3h).

There is nothing worse than having an endgame fusion drive powered fleet in orbit, that could easily intercept the enemy fleet in transfer (but doesn't do it so because of the extra few clicks required) and then having an enemy fleet (single dreadnought) entering orbit getting simultanously following messages:

Alien Fleet Victor-xx has entered orbit
Alien Fleet Victor-xx has started bombarding base
Your Colony Mining Complex has been destroyed (It is always the mining complex, muphy's law and such)
Alien Fleet Victor-xx has been destroyed (by base defense counterfire, robbing you of your revenge)
frostyplanet
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:26 pm

Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by frostyplanet »

I have simular problem.

I recently found that when I destroy AI Castilo station, but Alien ground base are invincible due to recent un-balanced patch. After 3 months, Alien begin to react and have all victors are converging on Castilo. Before that Alien are stacking at their own base. In order to trim down the total enemy fleet strength, I utilize the chance to intercept them.

It's impossible to intercept midway of their course since I have only 4*3k fleet. Each time you send fleet out cost 100 DV, intercept chances are low since enemy have high mobility (may escape even after 100-200 to spend on chacing). intercepting fleets are imobile, and need to refuel when my fleets are back.

I found that only working tatics to my current situation: have all my fleet wait at low orbit, turn down game speed, check daily for the arrival, intercept 1 victor with pinch movement of 2 fleet. If I let them alone and no ground base for them to bombard, they slip away (no more than 2 victors in the same orbit). I have to Repeat over and over.

But it's very tiresome doing all that manually, since victor fleets are too small and too many. Optimising AI behavior or automation is welcome.
Acheron
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by Acheron »

I take it things couldn't be changed in such a way, that corvettes simply cannot carry a weapon sufficient for bombardment?
Zanotirn
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Re: I can't continue my game without orbital intercept/blocking bombardment

Post by Zanotirn »

rookie.one wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:26 pm I would greatly help to make this dynamic less tedious, if there were a timer for fleets before they can start bombarding (~3h).

There is nothing worse than having an endgame fusion drive powered fleet in orbit, that could easily intercept the enemy fleet in transfer (but doesn't do it so because of the extra few clicks required) and then having an enemy fleet (single dreadnought) entering orbit getting simultanously following messages:

Alien Fleet Victor-xx has entered orbit
Alien Fleet Victor-xx has started bombarding base
Your Colony Mining Complex has been destroyed (It is always the mining complex, muphy's law and such)
Alien Fleet Victor-xx has been destroyed (by base defense counterfire, robbing you of your revenge)

I think that making it too easy to intercept fleets before they bombard would make even more of the drives redundant (and arguably it already happens). At the moment a capital ship with Daedalus torch and around 30-40 mg is good enough for everything - even though there are drives with much higher acceleration, you never need them since 30 mg is good enough for any intercept and for longer travel dv is far more important - so all those high-thrust drive don't have any use. If relying on your fleet rather than defense stations for defense of the whole planetary system meant that you may need to design ships with significant acceleration advantage over the enemy, rather than general-purpose torchships, it would be more realistic and actually use more of the drives the game has (at least on higher difficulty levels, a grace period before bombardment makes some sense on lower ones)
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